A Sufi spiritual meditative dance that is said to lead to the possibility of ecstatic union with God.
Here are some thoughts I had in response to a discussion I participated in elsewhere of how Extreme Islamists vicitmize Sufis. (I am thinking that there are those who might consider Sufis to be extreme Islamists who are persecuted by Islamist Fundamentalists … but that is another conversation!) They seemed appropriate to what I try to address here, thus, the cross-post!
This is exactly what has led me to the study of Buddhism ….. For some reason, the Abrahamic religions, perhaps simply because of geopolitical positioning, took the pursuit of the discipline of science as it developed in the “age of enlightenment” and has tried to make religion ‘answerable” to science.
Because much in mysticsm (which is considered esoteric) in the Abrahamic traditions of Christianity, Judaism and Islam was not previously able to be understood through a “scientific” lens, the “exoteric” groups have tried to denigrate or simply ignore the esoteric groups. More recently, however, science is giving us some insight into exactly what happens, say in the brain, when one meditates, etc.
Christianity has a strong and long history of mysticism, but you will not hear much about it in church on Sundays …. and if you do, it is generally in terms of mystical ecstatic unions ….. stuff generally accepted as being unreachable and probably not even something acceptable today.
Both Islam and Judaism have esoteric branches - Sufiism and Kabbalah, respectively.
A number of years ago, when I was trying so hard to find a way to “fit” in the Catholic church, it suddenly became clear to me that what I wanted, what I sought, was simply to know God. (friend of mine I was going through this particular exercise, her answer to “What is it that you seek?” was “a voice in the Church” (RC) She is now a pastoral adminstrator. (She is, in effect, the “Pastor” of the church and the priest is the “Sacramental Minister”.)
I really wanted to “know God” within the context of my church ….. but the more I got in touch with this longing for God, the more it became apparent that I needed to search within myself. My church did not have “tools” to give me to do this …. Buddhism has.
Stumble it!
June 9th, 2009 at 6:12 pm
Yeah, that is the goal of people like Father Thomas Keating and the Centering Prayer movement, to revive and reinvigorate that aspect of the Christian tradition. I assume (perhaps I shouldn’t) that you are familiar with folks like that and their efforts. Many people have gone to Buddhism and found this aspect that was missing from their own faith, only to then (re)discover it was there, hidden from view.
June 9th, 2009 at 8:41 pm
Deb,
What is your take on Centering Prayer?
I actually went to a CP meeting last week for the first time. Centering Prayer seems to be a very gentle and effective approach for going within and connecting to one’s Divine Nature.
Now, there is no emphasis on the breath or paying attention to the body as in Mindfullness practice. It seems to be primarily concerned with withdrawing one’s attention from the outside in order to connect with the Divine within.
One issue I have with CP is its Christian emphasis and reading of scripture. Personally, I have never found the Bible to be that spiritually inspiring. Sure, it has it’s moments - but all in all, I’d prefer to read poems by Hafiz or the writings of Toni Packer or Pema Chodron.
You know, I often ask myself if one could adopt Christianity or Catholicism as a “spiritual practice” - as one would do with Buddhism - without all the bells and whistles that accompany it. In others words, leave the religious dogma, rules, etc. out, while welcoming the spiritual practice or practices associated with it.
As you can probably tell, I am trying to fit into Catholicism but having a rather difficult time being successful. I have so much background in eastern spirituality that I find myself interpreting all the prayers and dogmas I hear at Mass from that perspective. I’d probably be booted out if they only knew!
June 10th, 2009 at 7:29 am
Hi Dave,
Yes, I think that was a big issue for many of us in the early 70s.
At that time, I was deeply Catholic. But, when I felt a strong urge to seek a contemplative or meditative form of practice, I found nothing available within the Church. Therefore, I went “east” looking for answers.
Bob
June 11th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
Buddhism has its own bells and smells, its own pantheon of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas to match the Catholic saints, etc. And yes, lot’s of people want to chop off what they see as useful from each tradition and discard the rest. I do too. The same is true of Buddhism, in which many Westerners who idealize an idol of rationality are attempting to “sanitize” all that nonsense that sounds too formal or too religious.
Having gone from conservative fundamentalist Protestantism to a default Deism/agnoticism to a smug anti-spiritualist & anti-religionist, when I decided to seek again I was drawn right away to Buddhism. I would never try to dissuade people from studying or practicing it. It allowed me to heal and mature spiritually to the point where I could appreciate the value of traditions like the robes, the bells and smells, the prostrations (it has to do with humility and gratitude) as well as taking the various Buddhas and Bodhisattvas seriously. I realized this was not the superfluous nonsense I had originally suspected them of being. I also learned a more nuanced way to read religious texts, one that was common to Christianity in ages past and which is still present if not overly common, in which there isn’t a single fixed meaning or lesson or insight from a particular passage or verse.
In any case, like hundreds or thousands of others in this situation, I started getting into interfaith books and eventually this lead to me authors like Br. Wayne Teasdale, Fr. Thomas Keating, and Fr. Thomas Merton among others. It was like reading the Bible again for the first time, with so much I hadn’t “seen” because of the exegesis I had been indoctrinate with. It was like meeting the Propehts, Jesus, his family, and his disciples for the first time. The issues with the historical and contemporary misuse and abuse of the Christian tradition became more clear as the true value of the heart of that tradition became more clear. The insights of the Buddha had opened me to the spirit of Christ, and the teachings of Christ confirmed the wisdom of the Buddha.
I also have a wish similar to that expressed by Bob, a wish that the Catholicism of faith and practice and devotion, of that vision of the Church expressed by the contemplatives and mystics and those working directly with the poor and downtrodden, could be separated from flaws and bureaucracy of the institution of the Church, but I wouldn’t want to toss out the Bible or the bells and smells. In the current Church climate I am guessing that a mystic-wannabe like me with a fairly progressive political orientation isn’t going to be very welcome in most circles.
Given the tone and text of this thread, here are a couple things along these lines that have challenged me greatly and continue to do so as I wrestle with them. One I read many months ago, the other I just found today. May they be a blessing to you as well…
On dogma/doctrine:
—————————————————-
The notion of dogma terrifies men who do not understand the Church. They cannot conceive that a religious doctrine may in be clothed in a clear, definite and authoritative statement without at once becoming static, rigid and inert and losing all its vitality. In their frantic anxiety to escape from any such conception they take refuge in a system of beliefs that is vague and fluid, a system in which truths pass like mists and waver and vary like shadows. They make their own personal selection of ghosts, in this pale, indefinite twilight of the mind. They take good care never to bring these abstractions out into the full brightness of the sun for fear of a full view of their unsubstantiality.
They favor the Catholic mystics with a sort of sympathetic regard, for they believe that these rare men somehow reached the summit of contemplation in defiance of Catholic dogma. Their deep union with God is supposed to have been an escape from the teaching authority of the Church, and an implicit protest against it.
But the truth is that the saints arrived at the deepest and most vital and also the most individual and personal knowledge of God precisely because of the Church’s teaching authority, precisely through the tradition that is guarded and fostered by that authority. - Thomas Merton, New Seeds of
Enlightenment, Chapter 20
—————————————————-
On the importance of mystery…
“heart opened in mystery”
June 11th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
BTW, I didn’t mean to sound as if Bob or anyone else was unfamiliar with Buddhism or the things I wrote about, I just am in the habit of contextualizing my comments. No arrogance intended, but looking back it could seem that way!
June 14th, 2009 at 12:06 pm
This may or may not apply to this post…
Although I have not taken refuge, I consider myself a Buddhist. My last Judeo-Christian church was the Episcopal Church but I’ve attended many Catholic masses as well. I do so love rituals!
I attended a Catholic Mass this morning (my first in over ten years) and I was very perplexed. My four year old daughter will be attending Pre-K at the Catholic School associated with this church so I would like to be a part of the church community. I know the rituals and the script from childhood but it felt wrong to recite the prayers, other than the offering of the peace.
I found this blog in a google search hoping to find an answer on how to avoid being the “evil” in the sanctuary! Anything you can offer me on this issue is welcome!
June 15th, 2009 at 6:08 pm
Hi Lydia,
I understand how you feel and the awkwardness of your situation.
There are many many prayers that I am just not comfortable saying either when attending Mass. I save my energy for the alleluias, LOL!!
Honestly, I am pretty much in the same boat as you. I enjoy the prayer around extending peace to one’s neighbor. But, the creed etc. - forget it!
I sugggest, Lydia, that you try to remain open and yet follow your heart as well. It’s certainly a challenging position to be in.
Bob
June 17th, 2009 at 11:22 pm
There will always be some people drawn toward this experience, but I think they will never be the largest number of any group. You can find many in the Catholic church if you look. For myself, I feel that God is a great mystery we are not at all capable of comprehending in a dogmatic way, but only in a way of experience which seems to feel humble and very happy at the same time, and very trusting.
June 25th, 2009 at 9:20 am
Without Buddha I Could Not Be Christian, by Catholic theologian Paul Knitter.
http://www.amazon.com/Without-Buddha-Could-Not-Christian/dp/1851686738/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1245939530&sr=8-3
July 6th, 2009 at 9:30 am
Deb:
It has been awhile since we contacted on the Buddhist-Christian yahoo group. I have been quite busy with grad school as I get my PhD in comparative theology (bringing Buddhism and Christianity together in dialogue) and so I have not had much time to update my blog which I linked in the comment section above with my name, nor to check out your page.
I resonate with a lot of what you and others have said on here. That mysticism/contemplative aspects of Catholicism is missing in the average parish and is not discussed. Hence why I want my group The Inner Room to grow. I want to be a resource at every parish to introduce this aspect back into the mainstream. Let people know about Thomas Keating, Wayne Teasdale, Thomas Merton and also John Main and the World Christian Meditation Group.
Let people think about Paul Knitter’s challenge that he can’t be a Christian without Buddhism — that his turn to the East allowed him to rediscover as a theologian the mystical and to re-think the church teachings. People need to hear about lectio divina and the four-fold way of interpreting scripture that allows for people to experience the religious depth of the bible. People need places for retreats and spiritual experts in mystical prayer and deep inner exploration. People need to see that religion doesn’t have to go as you say Deb — into the scientific and rational as the Christian theology seemed to turn to after Thomas Aquinas. There is an esoteric aspect to the tradition.
So I am hoping now that I have finished my classes in the PhD program, I am praying that I can slowly move to advancing the work, get the funding for the non-profit organization through donations and start doing the work at a larger scale than just with two or three people as I do it now.
July 6th, 2009 at 10:29 pm
Kevin,
Would you be willing to leave us a link to your yahoo group?
Thanks,
Bob
July 10th, 2009 at 2:25 am
Hia Deb,
First a thanks for re-gifting me the “Honest Scrap” award. It was very touching and your kind words moved me to speechlessness (thus the late thank you!).
I’m curious about the idea of ‘needing’ Buddhism to be a Christian, or any such notion. For me, a Catholic, then atheist, then Buddhist, I could say “without atheism I couldn’t be a Buddhist.” or the same for Catholicism, I suppose. But that simply acknowledges where these labels fit in my path. A lot of me is probably still “Catholic” and a lot is still “atheist” and maybe I’d be a *better* Buddhist if I’d become a Muslim for a time!
I guess it all seems silly to me when what’s important is the here and now, our present connectedness to the Divine or Dharma. I think that is the point of your post, isn’t it? That “knowing God” is not anything that any church or any label can give you.
But… I still hold hope that ANY spiritual path can help you turn within. Perhaps Buddhism fit for me at the time, perhaps Islam fits for another. As long as this direction is achieved, we all win.
July 11th, 2009 at 6:41 am
Wonderful post. Glad I found it. Too few folks writing on zen and christianity!
July 20th, 2009 at 10:53 pm
Dear Deb, What are you doing this summer? You are so quiet……….I miss your posts.
August 14th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
Hello to all,
I found this site this morning while looking through a post from my about.com website on Buddhism. I have called myself a Buddhist Catholic for quite some time, but was not taken seriously by my friends and family.
Over the years I have studied Zen meditation, TM, Centering Prayer and numerous other forms.
Today I am entering my 60’s and experiencing a rebirth of my interest in exploring a variety of spiritual experiences. Recently reading Autobiography of a Guru and realizing once more that we have more in common than in differences and it is reassuring to find others on a similar journey.
My life as a spiritual being has had many influences and I hope to continue to expose myself to the many wonderful colorful expressions of spirituality throughout the world. It is how I grow and enjoy.
August 14th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
Oops I made one error, when sharing my recent reading: it was “Autobiography of a Yogi” by Paramhansa Yogananda. This book has been around for many years, but I am just now reading it and learning from his life about the desire for divine union as well as the nature of spiritual journey for others.
Very fulfilling.
August 15th, 2009 at 6:28 pm
Hi Julie,
Sounds like you’re open to new spiritual adventures. BTW, how was your experience with Centering Prayer. Do you still practice it? It is very similar to an Eastern Practice I currently do.
Glad you posted as this site has been like a Ghost Town for the last month or so.
Bob
August 24th, 2009 at 11:59 am
This is another gentle nudge which you should disregard if it is the wrong time for it, Deb.
I feel as if you were dealt a blow by Gampo Abbey and it has taken some of the heart out of you. (Now I’m stoppipng for a few minutes to think about how the phrase “have the wind knocked out of you” or “take your breath away” relates to Buddhist practice……..)
But perhaps it has just moved you somewhere else which is where you should be. I don’t know. But I miss your posts here…………..
September 29th, 2009 at 10:12 am
It appears I have found this blog too late, and that you are no longer posting. After an intensive 3 years seeking “faith”, I’ve decided to suspend my search and try insight meditation instead, not to become a Buddhist, but simply to clear my mind. Perhaps the practice will lead me back to Christianity, and perhaps not. I have been drawn toward Catholicism because of the mystical and liturgical aspects, but turned off by the dogma which I can’t seem to accept.
Oh well. At least I can read the archives. Glad to have found your blog even if I am a bit late
October 4th, 2009 at 11:35 am
Hi Amy,
Yes, I attend Catholic Church and have a real problem with the dogma - and just the “Christian” attitude toward Jesus in general.
It really disturbs me when the church presents Jesus as some cellestial king that should be worshipped. I can’t imagine Jesus the man ever ever supporting such a thing. Just no way, period! He was much too humble through his spiritual nature.
In all honesty, I believe that the Christian “work” is to emulate Jesus so as to discover our inherent Divine Nature or Christ Consciousness. This is accomplished both through periods of contemplation and postive action in the world. It’s not so much about “getting somewhere” or going to heaven, but IMO, about embracing the Divine right here right now - yes, right in front of our noses!!
The Divine display - the great Cathedrals of the Creator - are right here before us now.
Bob
October 11th, 2009 at 1:36 pm
Yes, the dogmaticism in Catholicism is imperfect. It is impermanent, unsatisfactory, and incapable of self-existing.
October 16th, 2009 at 11:00 am
Hi Deb,
I am recently back from the retreat at Blue Cliff Monastery which was led by Thich Nhat Hanh. I feel somewhat changed for the better and am very glad I went and stayed! I met some RC nuns there and had good conversations with them, especially a physician from Maryknoll. I hope you will come back to your blog because I think people may need your words.
November 4th, 2009 at 8:37 pm
Hia Deb,
Justin here from the blog-o-world. I’ve just noticed that you’re not blogging lately, for a while actually, and wanted to wish you well and to let you know that I hope you’re okay and just taking a break from the digital world.
With blessings,
Justin
February 3rd, 2010 at 2:21 pm
It is true that many Christians, Jews and Muslims reject their tradition of mysticism because it upsets too many of their cherished beliefs. That is also true among some Buddhists, e.g. the Theravada and Pure Land. In its genuine form, and certainly among the true mystics I have met, it can be a bridge between religions. Some people do not want to cross that bridge.