I was intrigued by a comment made by someone on an e-mail group I participate in:
” I doubt that Jesus would have much to do with Christianity.”
I have been thinking along these lines lately ….
This comes out of my interest in Buddhism, initially … there are SO many “ways” to be Buddhist, that I began to think that what is important is what is the essential core that is common to all …… which, of course, in Buddhism comes down to the actual teachings of the Buddha …. or “Dharma”. So I have been wondering if instead of being buddhist, one might be a “Dharmist” …. (actually, there are some who consider this to be how Buddhism may be cultivated in the US.)
I have then applied the same line of thinking to Jesus …. the Christ ….. and all of the different ways of being “Christian” ….. what is the essential core to all??? In my mind, that commonality is found in the Sermon on the Mount.
If one studies both the Dharma and the Sermon on the Mount, one finds many similarities. Then, if one also studies the mysticism of Islam and Judiasim and Hinudism, there are again many similarities among them all ….
My essential question(s) to myself has been, can one follow the teachings of the Christ without being Christian?? Can one follow the teachings of the Buddha without being Buddhist?
What I have been “noodling” around with is that one can follow the teachings of the great teachers without actually being assimilated into a specific group”religion” …. seems as if “religiosity” is about regulating one’s spiritual experience. Religions tend to group together people who agree to express their spirituality in a particular way.
Is it possible, I wonder, to gather people together who agree to honor the indivdual spiritual experience of each person … or would that very act of gathering together simply result in another “religion” which would eventually develop a sense of “us” and “them”???
Can the “church” or “sangha” (or temple or mosque) that I belong to simply consist of the people who “people” my life???
Can being a “Buddhist Catholic” be a descriptor of what is at the heart of how I have decided to live my life and relate to the people in my life rather than being the identifier of a group to which I belong?
Stumble it!
April 3rd, 2009 at 11:50 am
I agree. I have been detaching myself from the Catholic church I’ve been going to because of the actions of the hierarchy, but I don’t feel detached from Jesus’s teaching. I certainly don’t feel detached from “God” the ground of my being. And the Sermon on the Mount is the heart of it all for me. I think the Unitarian/Universalist churches are the ones that do what you are suggesting, Deb. They honor each person’s personal spiritual journey. I have gone to some services. I’m not ready to join anything, but perhaps someday I can come to that.
April 3rd, 2009 at 3:03 pm
“Can one follow the teachings of the Buddha without being Buddhist?”
Absolutely, it’s common. In my understanding, to become a Buddhist you go through a refuge ceremony. You can practice meditation, like vipassana or insight meditation which is what I do, and agree with the Buddhist ideas behind it, without becoming Buddhist. Meditation is a secular practice. If you are a Buddhist Catholic, I am a Jewish Buddhist! (Though I consider myself a ‘Buddhist sympathizer’ and a meditator.)
As for believing in Christ without being Christian, I am not Christian so I don’t think I can give an informed answer, but I study French art and theory that creates its own concepts of the sacred that are often based on Christianity but for transgressing certain principles are in fact profane, and describe the profane as a kind of sacred. So I suppose one could find his or her own way to be Christian.
However, my understanding of Catholicism is that group practice is important, like the Mass, so I think being a Catholic without going to church wouldn’t make sense. My understanding is that having a more personal faith with God that doesn’t relate as much to works or liturgy is a more protestant or Lutheran faith. But feel free to correct me on this stuff.
April 3rd, 2009 at 5:31 pm
In the late 80’s I spent three years as a novice at the Cistercian monastery in Snowmass, Colorado. We hosted many visiting groups but I was most affected by a group of traveling Buddhist monks. We sat in meditation together with them for some time and I remember the feeling of deep harmony and understanding that was evident even though our actual communications were limited to bows and smiles.
No one there was concerned about the differences between us. I think in that timeless present moment of sitting together there was very little concern about what it meant. It was the familiar place of sitting in silence that transcended culture, language, theology. I doubt I would’ve ever had an opportunity to experience this outside of the monastery.
Thomas Merton said that to be a person of prayer I must eventually go into my room, close the door and pray. What I have found is that if I actually take to my mat and sit, something happens. Maybe God passes by… It doesn’t seem to matter what I think about it.
Best of luck in your journey.
April 4th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
You rock, right on, keep up the wonderful work, I will bookmark your blog…..
April 5th, 2009 at 12:16 am
I can’t remember if I got the link from you or some other, but the Christian-Zen monk Willgis Jaeger differentiated religions not horizontally, i.e. Catholic or Buddhist, but vertically, i.e. exoteric or esoteric. One can either dabble in theology and myths, or look deep into the heart of the unknown.
As someone else said: The philosopher knows, the seer sees.
April 6th, 2009 at 3:59 pm
Let’s see. Jesus was not a Christian and Lord Buddha was not a Buddhist either, right?
When I read that someone says that s/he doubts ‘that Jesus would have much to do with Christianity,’ I expect it would depend how one defines Christianity. There seems to be as many Christianities as Christians.
As Kristi wrote, the Sermon on the Mount is the heart of it all. So if we define Christianity as the Beatitudes, I expect that Jesus would recognize himself in it…
Maybe your friend felt that s/he did not recognize himself or herself in ‘Christianity’ as in the Vatican. But Christianity as in Leonardo Boff or Joan Chittister…
Pro-Life people may think Jesus would not recognize himself in pro-Choice people and vice-versa.
I find the whole Christianity thing a mystery through which I muddle.
Once again, I can identify with Kristi: I endeavor to follow Jesus. I forever long to connect with Godde and often, unfortunately, the hierarchical Church comes in the way. But every so often, some people in that Church remind me of Him, the Christ, for their kindness, their compassion, the way they look at the little ones.
I am always a bit afraid when I think Jesus would not like those I do not like…
Otherwise, thanks for a great post!
April 7th, 2009 at 6:25 pm
Kristi,
I tried the UU church a few times …. just felt too “heady” for me …. there is something about the “Mystical Church” in the RCC that still remains important to me …
Deb
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Rooster,
Yes, the Eucharist is central to the Catholic church …. but over the centuries it seems that the Theology of the Eucharist shifts from being about the individual receiving the Body and Blood of Christ to being about the communal gathering and worship of the faithful.
Deb
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Kevin,
A three year novitiate? …. wow, now that is intense!!!
Thank you for the story about the Cistercians and the Buddhist Monks sitting in silence together …. it is a wonderful story. Most especially, thanks for this image “What I have found is that if I actually take to my mat and sit, something happens. Maybe God passes by… It doesn’t seem to matter what I think about it.”
I know exactly what you mean …..
Thanks for sharing ….
Deb
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Sylvie,
I love your enthusiasm!!! I am also happy to be one of your bookmarks …. hope to hear more from you.
Deb
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Paul,
Thank you for reminding me of the horizontal/vertical concept …. I had forgotten that !!!!
Deb
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Claire,
It was indeed a conversation regarding Christianity as it has been organized into denominations …. and its resultant hierarchies.
I sometimes wonder if one centers one’s “Christianity” around something such as the Sermon on the Mount would one then necessarily need to believe in the Resurrection??? Can one be Christian by following he teachings of Christ and not believe in the Risen Christ???
Or the other way around??
I think the original statement was mostly about whether or not the man Jesus would join any Christian denomination as they are now expressed.
The person asking the question is actually a minister …so she definitely was putting herself into the group she doubts Jesus would be aligned with.
As always, great to hear from you!!
Debbie
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April 21st, 2009 at 4:12 pm
I have just come to your blog directed here from Claire’s. I am an english anglican, so have a different perspective, because anglicanism began as a pragmatic compromise and we (some?most? of us) still tend to value unity over uniformity of belief. So yes, there are folks who are Christians (even priests) without believing in the Resurrection - google Sea of Faith.
I’ll be back, buddhistcatholic!
April 27th, 2009 at 2:20 pm
Ironically, Buddhism has been bringing me back to Christianity, in particular an attraction to the saints and liturgy moreso than the hierarchy. But then I suspect that the heart of the Christian message is most faithfully renewed at this level. And I wasn’t a Catholic before, or even Anglican or Orthodox. Just “non-demoninational” conservative evangelical Protestantism.
The main reason I hit reply however is to let Deb and others here who may be interested about a newly released book called *How to believe in God (whether you believe in religion or not)*, written by a western Buddhist (re-)discovering the wisdom of the Bible. It seems to fit the general theme of the blog but of this post in particular.
May 5th, 2009 at 2:02 am
Hey Deb, thanks for all the food for thought! Good stuff!
Peace
May 10th, 2009 at 4:46 pm
I believe in God… call me a Goddist… lol. My God can’t be limited to any particular shape or color or book of rules/laws. I think many people make things too complicated. I believe it is all about Love. Give it and get it. Compassion is rooted in Love. Giving is rooted in Love. Creativity is rooted in Love. God is Love.
In my mind, many other religions/teachings just have different images/interpretations of who/what God is, but they all seem to follow the same core path. I see other people belief systems as different highways to the same destination. (With the acception of those who choose not to believe.)
May 29th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
Bridget,
Welcome!! My mother is a Native Brit, so I tend to have an affinity for Anglicans!
Thank you for the reference regarding “Sea of Faith” … I look forward to hearing from you again!!!
Debbie
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Dave,
Thanks for the reference to the book “How to believe in God …” It would seem that it is less and less acceptable to just assume that they “great un-churched” do not believe in God!
Peace and Good…
Debbie
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Joe,
You are welcome …. thanks for stopping by!!!
Debbie
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cBeyondlimits,
Indeed … “God is Love” seems to sum it up … perhaps al lthe rest is commentary!
Be well,
Debbie
June 13th, 2009 at 2:50 pm
I guess I am not sagacious enough to discern why one would want to be a Christian apart from the Christianity. I suspect it comes down to ones personal interpretation of Christianity. I am Catholic and a Carmelite who enjoys mystical theology, and I especially have reverence for the Holy Mass. It is there that I encounter the mystery of Christ, and have my most personal relationship with God. Christianity in its intent is community of contemplatives, living “the way” of Christ Jesus through prayer, charity and poverty of spirit (i.e. detachment).
Kirth
October 17th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
I have been a follower of the Lord Christ Jesus for decades, and have run the gamut of Christianity. Let’s just say at some point I’ve tried them all and embraced a few. It has been a bumpy ride to say the least.
Although I am a life long student of the Bible, I have also found peace and wisdom in the Tao, the Koran, and many other extra-Biblical texts, to include non-canonized gospels and ancient writings. I, too, have found the Sermon on the Mount to be the cornerstone of my spiritual foundation. I also include the Gospel of John and Matthew 25 among the building blocks. I take the Master literally when he promises that “if we seek, we shall find.” So I never stop seeking… and I never stop finding… It’s wonderful!
I’ve considered myself to be a “follower of Christ but not Christianity” for quite some time now, and I must admit, at times it’s a lonely journey. This concept is often difficult to explain to people within Christianity. I have many Catholic friends who “get it” but many evangelical Protestant friends who don’t and fear for my salvation.
I am saddened that they fear for me, when what they need to have is peace in their hearts… the peace that is so available when we free ourselves from fear and embrace the knowledge and expression of pure unconditional Love that Christ brought to our physical realm. I believe Fear to be the most toxic fruit of extreme Christianity. There are others, but Fear is the deadliest.
Today was one of those days I was feeling lonely on my journey, and yet I know in my heart that I’m not alone. I Googled “Christian without Christianity” and found this blog. What a pleasant surprise! Not only is your blog post provocative and uplifting, but so are the comments.
I will keep you on my link bar and look back often. Thank you and I appreciate your willingness to put these questions out there. They are the same questions I’ve been asking myself for years.
January 7th, 2010 at 2:13 pm
I was going to just state that there are beautiful lines by Jesus show how open minded God is. Jesus is the truth and the light in that he lived the ideal life and was perfect. We are to strive “to be perfect like our father in heaven” and also that when the disciples asked him about other preaching that did not belong to their group, he states “if they are not against us, they are with us”. Truly the deeds and words of Jesus resonates must deeper than the literal interpretations. Our brothers from different faiths, if living the life if deed and intentions as a true child of God and listening to their hearts, by default i believe will share glorifying God in life, expressing the same virtues and moral code as Christians.
February 2nd, 2010 at 2:26 pm
Here at last there is a community of “seaking souls”
Thanks for the blog. God is Love without limits and there is not fear in Love.Christianity is not a matter of a egoistic salvation, but a compassion and Love. Kasia